Welcome to The Writing Coach. On this podcast, I speak with the instructors, editors, coaches, and mentors who help writers and authors create their art, build their audience, and sell their work.
In episode #106 of The Writing Coach podcast, I speak with author and writing coach J. Thorn.
J. Thorn has published two million words and has sold more than 185,000 books worldwide. In March of 2014 Thorn held the #5 position in Horror alongside his childhood idols Dean Koontz and Stephen King (at #4 and #2 respectively). He is an official member of the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, the Horror Writers Association, and the Great Lakes Association of Horror Writers.
J. earned a B.A. in American History from the University of Pittsburgh and a M.A. from Duquesne University. He is a full-time writer, part-time professor at John Carroll University, co-owner of Molten Universe Media, podcaster, FM radio DJ, musician, and a certified Story Grid nerd.
During our discussion, J. describes:
- How he has approached work and productivity throughout the COVID-19 pandemic
- Why writing a novel is like having a baby
- The way music has influenced his writing
- How he approaches each writing and publishing project as an experiment
- Why he made the decision to leave his day job to pursue writing full-time
- And much more!
Click below to listen now:
The Writing Coach Episode #106 Show Notes
Get all the details about J. Thorn’s Super Charge Your Scene challenge right here!
Episode Transcript
Today on the show, I have J. Thorn. Welcome to the show.
Kevin, how are you doing man?
I am doing good. These are crazy times. It made me think as someone who has written dystopian literature and has spent some time thinking creatively about how mankind continues on after major disruptions, I’m wondering, do you think that helped prepare you at all for the craziness that we’re currently living through?
Oh, I wish I could say it had. Uh, definitely not. I mean, I’m not, I’m not a prepper or a survivalist. Uh, even though I write dystopian and, and post-apocalyptic fiction, but, um, man, this is way worse than, than a story I got to say. It’s, it’s crazy. You know, you’re like, uh, every day you’re sort of locale like what’s next? Like, what am I going to face today? And I think what’s, what’s hard about this compared to, you know, uh, the fiction side is like in those stories there, there’s usually an arc and like an end. And, and right now they’re feeling like there’s just no end in sight to all of this instability. Absolutely.
Well, J., I was thinking about how to do your introduction here and I don’t even know how to do it. You’ve got so much going on, right? You’re an author, you’re a writing instructor, you’re a podcaster. You’re an entrepreneur. You have a background in music. Maybe I’ll throw it to you. How do you introduce yourself these days?
A great question. I don’t have to because I’m not interacting with too many
people right now, but, uh, I usually say I’m a writer and publisher. Um, and
uh, that, that covers a lot in, in some circles. I’ll say I helped transform
struggling writers into career authors and that kind of covers the two basic
sides. I, um, I’ve always been a very, uh, creative person. I’ve always enjoyed expressing my creativity and individuality and in different ways. And at the same time, I’ve always felt like, uh, I was a teacher in some form or fashion, whether it was a coach, a formal classroom instructor, a guide, a mentor. I’ve always enjoyed that. I’ve gotten great fulfillment out of helping other people.
So those are sort of the two prongs of my existence that I thoroughly enjoy.
And it’s like, uh, you know, asking which one’s your favorite kid. Like you
can’t really can’t really decide there. But I love creating, whether it’s, uh,
stories through music or through words or sometimes even through film. I love that. And I also, like I said, uh, I love helping other people. So that’s
basically what I do every day. I know
Personally, I have certainly struggled over the last few months to create or even
wondering, you know, whether it’s the right time to create, this is my first
podcast episode in a couple of months. Um, you know, I’ve been doing the show
for like five years and I’ve never had a break this long. You know, early on
in, in the pandemic, it felt almost inappropriate or something to be putting
content out into the world. As we were saying before we hit record here, at
some point though, you kind of got to go back to work, but I’m curious from
your own perspective as a creative individual and as someone who works with
artists, um, how have you found, have you been struggling or have you been able
to, to kind of lock down and focus and get work done during these strange
times?
Yeah, I’ve been, uh, reading your emails and following your struggle since, since
this all started. Uh, I think I’m struggling but in a different way. I didn’t
necessarily have a period of time where I felt my productivity slide. And I
think part of that is because I’m, I’m in my third or fourth year of doing this
full time now and I’ve built these systems and processes and quite honestly, as
long as I have electricity and wifi, I can run those processes. Now. If I don’t
have electricity or I don’t have wifi, everything falls apart. But other than
that, most of my day is spent at a keyboard in front of a monitor or behind the
laptop. And I think a part of me just didn’t want to deal with what was
happening. Like there, there’s a certain level of, um, being overwhelmed by
everything that I just said.
Well, you know, I’m going to keep my head down and I’m just going to keep doing what
I do and what I’m doing because I can’t, it’s just too overwhelming to think
about. And, and so I think early on I didn’t necessarily stop what I was doing.
I sort of, I struggled in another way in that. Um, part of me had a sense of
panic. Like I started thinking like, okay, well if this pandemic is going to
lead to massive unemployment and layoffs, which it has, and continued economic
instability, what does that mean for my business? You know, as an entrepreneur,
as a business person, as a writing coach, if, if the people I’m serving are
losing their jobs, they’re not going to continue to pay me to get their novel
in ship, you know, tiptop shape. That’s just not realistic. And so I think
where I struggled, and hopefully I’m coming out of that now, is I ended up
working way more than I should have.
And I mean like 14, 16 hour days because I was really panicking. I was thinking
like, I don’t like, I don’t have a safety net, you know, my, my wife works and,
and uh, thankfully we get our health insurance through her employer, but she
doesn’t even make enough to make our Mo our mortgage payments. So I kinda went
into this panic mode and I ended up creating and building a lot more stuff than
I probably should have. And, uh, a few weeks ago I just got really tired and
I’m like, okay, I have to, I have to get off this treadmill. It’s not healthy,
it’s not helping. And I have to kind of pace myself. So I, I did struggle. Um,
but I, I think I struggled in a different way.
I think, you know, something it’s reminded me of, and I think maybe it’s, it
sounds like it’s, you’ve got a reminder as well, is this idea that despite the
myth of the kind of crazy depressed alcoholic artists, uh, the reality is we
all do our best work when we’re sane and healthy and not panicking and not
working ourselves to the bone, but also not going into total paralysis and
getting nothing done. And, you know, this whole thing has been a really good
reminder that when you’re physically healthy and when you’re mentally healthy
and when you’re taking care of yourself and you’re approaching your work at a
reasonable pace, that’s when we do our best work.
Yeah. It’s so true, Kevin. I mean, it’s a, it’s a reminder that we’ll probably have
to get, again, at least I know. I will. Uh, but yeah, like we, you know, when
you’re, when you’re desperate or you’re, um, you’re panicking, I think, you
know, people in the universe, it’s, they all sense that, and nobody wants to be
working with a desperate person. Like it’s, it’s not an attractive energy
really. And, and, uh, and I think you’re right. I think there, you know, you
have to step back and say, okay, all right, so maybe I’m not going to do this
or maybe I’m not going to write for a week or maybe I can’t focus on my novel
right now. And that’s okay. And I think give yourself some time to maybe go
back to some of the basics to revisit your diet and the meals that you’re
making to revisit your, your sleeping habits to, uh, go back to an exercise
routine. I think this is a good moment for all of us to circle back around and
say, okay, I’m not going to be going to the bar or the bowling alley or the
coffee shop, so maybe I need to kind of turn inward and reevaluate some of that
stuff that I know on a fundamental level it’s going to make me a more
productive person. But I’ve been neglecting it.
I was listening to a video of yours to talk you gave at author marketing summit
several years ago and you started out kind of telling your author story. Um,
and you talked about writing your first book and how you kind of decided you
wanted to write the book that you didn’t see was out there and you just sat
down and wrote a 180,000 word book as your first book there. But I want to dig
into that story a little bit more. I think there’s more to it than just sitting
down and writing 180,000 words. Right. So what was it, maybe take us back a few
years before that, you know, what role did literature play in your life and how
did you get to the point where you were confident enough and had the discipline
enough to sit down and write that very first book?
I like to say that I’m a much more hardheaded than I’m disciplined. I’m more
talented. Uh, I’ll come back to that in a minute. Yeah. You know, uh, reading,
uh, reading and writing has always been important to me, but it’s, I’ve gone
through different phases of my life. So when I was, uh, you know, my first
exposure to genre fiction, like many of us was Stephen King’s work. And I
remember reading pet cemetery as a 15 year old and, and being absolutely
frightened by a book. And I didn’t even think that was possible until I read
Stephen King and, and I was fucked. And I read everything that the King wrote
and I branched out and I read Koons. And I read in layman and I got into a lot
of, a lot of other horror writers and I’d always been a reader. I love to read,
I love the active reading.
I love sitting down on a couch for the book in silence by myself. I just, it’s a
thoroughly enjoyable activity from, for me. And I, because of that, I also
enjoyed writing, but I, I was writing mostly nonfiction stuff. I, uh, in high
school I wrote a few articles for an undisclosed underground newspaper, which
might get me arrested if I’ve published that stuff today. And then when I got
into college, I wrote for, uh, I wrote an op ed column for the school
newspaper. And I remember that being a real thrill, like, uh, the, at the, this
was the late eighties, early nineties. So there wasn’t internet. And I can remember
walking through the student union and just seeing hundreds of people reading my
articles, knowing that the paper had a circulation of 30 or 40,000 students.
And I just, that was so thrilling to me and, and a bit voyeuristic because I
thought there’s, there’s two kids that are talking about my article and I’m
sitting right here and they don’t know it’s me.
Uh, and so I think that grew. And then, you know, I got into education and I became
a full time teacher and I did that for, uh, decades, but all the while I was
writing, uh, you know, technical stuff and writing things for my day job. And
it wasn’t until, uh, the early to mid two thousands when I got that, that sort
of itch that I think we all get. And it goes something like this. You’re
reading a book and you go, you know, I really liked this, but I think I could
write something better. And then, you know, for me it was pure ignorance. I had
no idea what that meant. And so I decided, okay, if I’m going to try writing
something that’s a fiction, I’ll pick up Stephen King’s on writing. So I got
the book, I read it from cover to cover, and I kind of clapped my hands and
said, all right, I’m good to go.
That’s all I needed to do. And I sat down and I just, I just started, you know,
writing, writing a story, not having any clue what I was doing, not having any
understanding of how terrible it was. Uh, but I just, I didn’t know what I
didn’t know. And so that ignorance and kind of hardheadedness, uh, kind of push
me, push me through and it just so happened that, uh, that’s about the time
Amazon was releasing its first Kindle. And so, you know, fast forward a year or
so, and I have a few manuscripts and now everyone has the ability to basically
upload a word document and sell it on Amazon. And it was, it was like a whole
new world.
I think that naivety or ignorance is so important early on for artists and
creatives. I know as a coach myself, I often try to walk that balancing act of
informing people and giving the information they need and helping educate them
on their craft, but doing so in such a way that doesn’t erase that, that is so
important to get you through it. Because if you knew how hard it really was and
how complicated writing a novel really is, so many of those beginners would
just give up.
Oh, there’s no doubt. And I, and I, it’s a running joke between my wife and I and
that, and uh, she’s never written a novel and I’ve never given birth to a
human, but we both say it’s a similar experience. And that if you, if you knew
what was involved, you’d never, never do it in the first place. And once you do
it, you’d never do it again. And both of us are liars because we have more kids
and I, and I keep writing novels. So I think there is, there is something to
that, you know, like there’s a naivete, there’s an ignorance and then you kind
of, you get amnesia and you then you forget. And you do it again and then
you’re in the middle of it and you’re like, why am I doing this again? And
there you are.
I’d love to hear a bit about your background in music. I come from a punk rock
background. Long before I ever wrote stories or novels or books, I was writing
songs and there’s so much, uh, I learned about, you know, the importance of
structure and genre. Um, and then so much from the punk rock side of things in
terms of DIY and, and, um, accepting imperfectness and bringing energy and passion
to a story. All of my art is really informed by that musical punk rock
background. I’d love to hear about the role music has played in your own
creative journey.
Yeah. It sounds like it’s been very similar to yours, although I was more into the
hard rock heavy metal, but at the time it was still a DIY approach. And, uh,
and I think I learned those same lessons because you know, when you, uh,
especially in a band situation, it’s different if you’re a singer, song writer
or you just like to play piano in your living room, in your spare time, it’s,
it’s different. But when you’re in a band, you, you have to compromise. You
have to collaborate, you have to be a good listener. You have to know when to
lead, you have to know when to follow. And I think all of those skills transfer
into being a novelist, even if you’re an independently published novelists,
because you are most likely, you know, hiring out a graphic designer, you are
working with an editor.
There are, there are other people on your team that you have to form. So even if
you’re not strictly co-writing, you still have to be able to interact with
others. And I think also around this idea of genre, uh, yeah, it’s so
important. Um, you know, when you’re, when you’re in a band and you’re trying
to get a gig, you, you have to know the venue. Like you don’t, you don’t bring,
um, a yacht rock band to a punk rock club. Like you just don’t do that right
now. There are some clubs and venues that might specialize in eclectic taste,
but for the most part, we all know that the places in town where you go if you
want to hear this type of music versus this type of music and that John WRA and
there’s nothing wrong with saying this is the kind of music gonna play or this
is the kind of story I’m going to tell.
And I think what I find when I work with a lot of, uh, newer clients or people who
are not as experienced on their author journey, they sort of get hung up on
this idea that they have to create something unique. And, and I, I hate to be
the one that to, you know, burst their bubble, but I’m like, it’s not going to
happen. We’re all influenced by, by what came before us. And that’s okay. There’s
nothing wrong with that. You should be able to, uh, lean on, on the things,
stand on the shoulders of giants and, and pull from your influences. That’s,
that’s part of being a creative. You’re not going to come up with a brand new
song or a core progression. No one’s ever heard or a storyline that no one’s
ever seen before. It’s probably not going to happen. Yeah. I always find it
funny when people say, Oh, I’m going to reject traditional story structure.
It’s like, that’s like saying I’m going to start a blues band, but we’re not going
to play blues riffs. Right, right, right. These structures are the foundation
of the art form and your challenge is to make it your own. Yeah. And again,
like if it’s, if you’re doing it for your own fulfillment and your own
enjoyment and entertainment and do whatever you want, like that’s great. Like
experiment, play, play blues music without a 12, you know, 12 bar blues, do
whatever you, whatever floats your boat. But if you’re interested in connecting
with people, if you’re interested in building an audience or even taking it all
the way out, you’re interested in, in earning money from, from your art, then
you have to pay attention to what people want. And it’s tricky because people
want something that’s just like everything else but different. And then when you
think about that, you’re like, well how am I supposed to do that?
It’s like, well that’s the life of an artist. That’s what it means. You have to, you
have to give something, you have to give a piece of art or a piece of
entertainment to someone, have them recognize it, but also be surprised by it. And
I think that is the lifelong struggle and passion of artists.
Well, you mentioned that idea of building an audience or connecting with people.
Something I find really interesting about you is your willingness to experiment
with your books. I’ve seen you talk about experimenting with formats, with
getting different covers, with a pricing, all of these different things. I tend
to publish a book and then move on to the next thing and never look back. But I
see a real willingness in your career to continue to work on your books and try
to get them to that place where they find that audience via experimentation. Can
you talk a bit about that?
Yeah, definitely. I’m, I’ve never been the type of person who wanted to be called a
guru or a master. I always, uh, felt like there was a, selfishly, it was a bit
of, it’s a bit of an odd thing to desire because if you become a guru or a
master, then what’s left? Uh, you know, like if, if, if you feel as though
you’ve learned everything, you need to learn about something, I think life
becomes boring. So I’ve always prided myself on being, um, a learning teacher
and, uh, yes, I have clients and yes, I coach people, but I have coaches and I
have mentors and I’m always learning. And I, and I would like to think that I
always will be. Uh, especially, you know, it’s not even, not necessarily even
so much the marketing, but even in the craft side, I’m constantly reading books
on craft and taking classes and going to seminars.
And I, and I think that that’s the type of learning environment where that I’m
proud to be part of. So I try and model that for my students. I say, listen, I
don’t have all the answers and sometimes I try things and they totally fail.
And that’s okay. That’s part of it. And what you have to do when things totally
fail or don’t work or don’t end up the way you want them to is you have to step
back and say, okay, you know, why do I think that happened? What am I going to
do differently next time? And try it again. And for me, you know, that’s a lot
of fun. I, I’m, I’m experienced, I have two experiments right now that, uh, I’m
doing in the crafts on the craft side. So I’m in the process of writing a
memoir, which I’ve never done before.
And I have a friend helping me with that and I’m writing another book that’s in a
completely different genre. And I’ve never done that before either. But all of
that is, is learning to me. And I know it’s hard not to focus on the outcome,
but I try and focus more on the process and I try and think, okay, if I try
this experiment, I’m not as interested in what’s going to happen at the end,
but what am I going to learn along the way? And that’s hard. That’s really hard
to do because we can often judge the effort based on the outcome and sometimes
there are variables or factors that affect that, that are completely out of our
control and we get, we, we get a misshapen sense of what our, what our efforts
meant.
You’ve mentioned that you’ve long been a teacher kind of in the day job capacity. What
was the situation that led to you making that leap into the creative world and
working with authors in the culture coach or instructor capacity?
I did something that I tell people is the absolute worst thing you could
possibly do, which is I left my job when I was making about a hundred dollars
in royalties a month and I did that without a big savings. I didn’t have any
earnings saved up. Uh, I have a wife, I have two teenagers in private school. I
have a mortgage, I have two car payments. And I just felt like I, I needed a
change. I had gotten to the point in my career where I quite honestly, I was at
the pinnacle. I mean, I, I was the assistant director of entrepreneurship at a
very high powered independent school at the top of my salary range, getting a
national and international recognition for the work that we were doing. But I
needed to change. I had been working with kids for 20 years at that point and I
just, I knew in my soul that I needed to try something else to do something
differently.
And my wife luckily was very supportive, although skeptical. But when I told her,
I’m like, I can’t do this anymore. And that was one of the hardest things I
ever had to do because that job was, uh, the, the definition of golden
handcuffs. I was issued a contract every year. Uh, so I, I was guaranteed the
salary. Uh, unfortunately for a lot of jobs, your salary is not based on
performance. So I could have just gone in and kinda coasted and made the same
amount of money, but I knew my soul. I couldn’t, I couldn’t do that. And so I
also knew that if I had a safety net that I wouldn’t put my all into it. I
would hold back because I would think, well, if this doesn’t work, I can always
fall back on X, Y, and Z. So I knew that the only way I was going to be able to
make it go with this, and I didn’t know if I was going to be successful or not,
was to, uh, it was to just cold Turkey.
And when I left, uh, I left at the end of the academic school year, I think, uh,
you know, may, probably around three years right around to this day. Three
years ago I left and I had my, uh, my salary set up on a 12 month payment
program. So I was going to get my paycheck from the school in June, July, and
August. So I had 90 days. Uh, we had living expenses for 90 days. Like I said,
that wasn’t saved up money, that was money. I was expecting to come in from a
paycheck. And I thought, okay, this is, I’ve got 90 days to start generating
revenue to start, uh, doing something because once those paychecks run out,
we’re, we’re, we’re kind of on our own. And I think that level of, of, uh, of
desperation was something that motivated me and, uh, gave me the, you know,
the, the motivation to just to try as much as I could and, and to really
hustle.
And, uh, like I said, that’s not advice I give. I think you’re better off sidestepping, you know, if you have a side hustle and then waiting till you get your income up and then, you know, and then change. But, uh, I just knew myself. I was done. I was done with that type of teaching. Uh, I needed to change and if I didn’t, if I didn’t cut the cord completely, I was afraid I would never going to, I was never going to do it.
So what year was that when you left the day job?
That was 2017.
All right. So it’s been a good, you know, three, four years now. Uh, and you have
so much interesting stuff going on. I’d love to hear a bit, I mean, you do
something where you take authors on a train, you’re doing all sorts of these
live events. Tell me about some of these cool things you’ve got going on.
My business partner and co-writers, Zach Bohannan, uh, convinced me to get back
into the education, uh, game because for the first year, so I was like, no, I’m
a writer. That’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to write, I’m not going to
teach your coach. I, you know, I was kind of burnt out on it. And Zach said,
you know, you can still teach like you can, you can teach writing. It doesn’t
have to be the way you were doing it before. And he convinced me to start the
career author podcast with him. Uh, and so we started that, uh, I don’t know,
2018. I, I, I’m thinking now. And that was sort of the start of me realizing
like, yeah, I don’t, I don’t have to choose. I can be a creative and a teacher,
but I can, I can teach in my own way.
And once I had that realization, I feel like a lot of options opened up to me. So I
started multiple podcasts. Um, I had got certified certified as a story grid
editor in 2017 and took on developmental editing clients. I did. So I was doing
education that way. And then, uh, in the spring of 2017 shortly before I left
my job, Zach and I went on a trip with Lindsey broker and Joanna Penn. Um, it
was a joke. We were going to, uh, take the Amtrak from Chicago to new Orleans
and they were going to spend five days in new Orleans, uh, writing a story
together and we were four friends. So that’s kinda how it started. And, and
Joanne is like, yo, this is a great idea. This is like authors on a train. And
so, uh, on the last day when we’re in new Orleans, Zach and I were sitting at a
table in the French quarter and just kind of talking about how much fun we were
having.
And, uh, and I said, you know what, we should do this for other people. We should
take people on this kind of trip. It would be a once in a lifetime experience.
And that’s how it got started. It was as simple as that. And, uh, from that
day, now we’ve done three authors on a train trips. Uh, two of them, we took
people from Chicago to new Orleans. Uh, this the one that we just did this year
in January. We, uh, took them from Los Angeles to San Francisco. And, uh, it’s
great. We get, we get 12 or 15 authors together. Um, we spend a week together,
we write together, and then we ended up publishing a charity anthology at the
end of the time, uh, that we, that we put up. So it’s a different form of
education. It’s, it’s not something I was, you know, even even on my radar when
I was still in, in the day job.
But, uh, it’s really kind of done a number of things for me. It’s given me multiple
revenue streams. It’s allowed me to really express my creativity through
education and still be tied into the storytelling process. So it’s, it’s been a
fun evolution, but the authors on a train trips are a blast. Uh, unfortunately,
because of the pandemic, we’re, we’re not doing the California one again in
2021. We’re going to do that in 2022. But we’ve also been sprinkling in these
little world building weekend events and there’s genre specific. So we did a
night of the writing dead, which was for the 50th anniversary of night of the
living dead. And that was a zombie anthology. We did that. Pittsburgh, we did a
rock APOC, which was a, uh, post APOC dystopian weekend we did at the rock and
roll hall of fame in Cleveland. We did, uh, Saifai Seattle in a museum of pop
culture in Seattle. And, um, next year we’re doing one in Salem, Massachusetts
called, which is a Salem, uh, along with one in new Orleans called vampires of
new Orleans. So we’re, uh, we’re really excited about these experiential things
for authors because we don’t repeat the world building trips. They’re sort of a
one off, you know, bucket list once in a lifetime kind of thing. And there’s
just so much fun. I love it.
Well, for folks who would maybe like to do some work with you during these lockdown
times, you have a really cool challenge coming out called supercharge. You’re
seeing a, we’re recording this at the very beginning of June. It’s happening
mid June. Can you tell the listeners about this challenge?
Yeah, I’m really excited about this. Uh, I built this challenge specifically for
authors and uh, and I designed it in a way that, uh, if you, if you spend 10 or
15 minutes for five days, I believe it’s gonna fundamentally change the way you
write scenes and improve your writing. And it really what it’s come out of is
out of all the story grid editing and coaching I’ve done over the past three
years, I’ve, I’ve lost track of how many scenes I’ve analyzed. Uh, thousands
probably, uh, for clients and for myself. And I’ve developed a system for uh,
sort of double checking to make sure your scene has all the components it needs
to keep readers turning pages. So I decided, uh, you know, I’m gonna it’s uh,
everyone’s been on lockdown and in, in their house and uh, this might be a
great way to kind of regenerate those creative juices and get things going
again.
So as you mentioned, it’s, it’s completely free, a hundred percent free. Uh, it’s
gonna, it’s gonna be five days. I’m going to deliver a video in a lesson every
day. There is an exclusive private Facebook group for people who want to join
that. And really the goal is to take each one of these little mini lessons and
then write one, 2000 words scene, short story or blog post if you’re, if you
write nonfiction and uh, using these methods and hopefully by the end of that
you’ll, you have a much better understanding of how to write really good scenes
that work.
I love it. Well, we are going to have links to all of that as well as everything
else you have going on in the show notes for this episode. Uh, Jay, it’s been a
lonely couple of months for me. Uh, you know, I got a very busy household, but
it’s a really nice to reach out and talk to you and again, an opportunity to
interact with someone. So thank you so much for coming on the show today.
Oh, my pleasure, Kevin. And I’m proud to be the, uh, the comeback episode for you.
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